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Sifu Stier
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Now in a Christian context
« on: 11 April 2007 »

I thought this short article was interesting, and perhaps relevant to this topic.  [Admin - well as the topic was why the Now isnt good enough alone I thought it tidier to keep 'pro-nowist' and 'not-completely-nowist' articles separate..]

Enjoy it NOW! tongue  Doc

************

The Eternal NOW !
 

If you are easily offended by radical Biblical truths or if you cannot accept a modernized approach to long-standing beliefs, then we invite you to select another reading avenue from the "Literature" section of this site.

Since birth we have all been taught to think in terms of "time"; it takes time to do this or that, to perform such and such a task ect... Everything we do in encircled in "time".
Time is best understood by events. There are events that just took place or that took place some time ago, and there are events that are about to happen. That gives us the "past" and the "future", but what about the "present", the NOW ?

In our mortal world of birth, life, and death NOW doesn't exist ! NOW is eternal and is spiritual. NOW is seperate from "past" and "future" as thse later are what define "time", but NOW is eternal, it doesn't transient (passing especially quickly into and out of existence - Webster's) into something else as "past" does.

God lives in the Eternal NOW. It has no beginning or end, it just IS. When Moses enquired of God about whom he should say sent him to be the deliverer of the children of Israel, what did God answer ? "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you ." (Ex 3:14) and Jesus, when disputing the Scribes and Pharisees, the hypocritical religious leaders of the day, said, " Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am ." (Jn 8:58) !!! This was following a statement to the effect that how could Jesus have known Abraham, not yet having been of this life for enough "time", or being "old enough". Now we know that prior to His physical birth Jesus was with God in the Eternal NOW ; " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. ." (Jn 1: 1,14) . In the Eternal Now "time" is not a factor.

Those who have departed this life go on to another place, a spiritual place no longer governed by the past or the future and where aging is no longer a factor as the threshold (gate, door - Webster's) of death has already been crossed. They are now in the spiritual world, The Eternal Now.

On occasion people get to have a look into the Eternal Now through dreams and visions and that is what has given us the prophecies of the Bible. The prophets or "seers" as they were called ; "(Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.) ." (1Sam 9:9) would be permitted to look into the Eternal Now, where things from "life" are already all recorded, and would come away with, what is to us, a view of the future as we are still in "time" not yet having crossed the threshold of death.

History, past and future, is already recorded as a "happened" event. You can read about it in the Bible. It is already all done. The Bible's prophetic books, and in particular those relating to The EndTime describe events, which to us are "future", but to the Eternal Now of the spirit world, are already recorded. The physical, including us, is merely catching up to what is already in place in the spiritual. In the spiritual things move in a instant, but then the physical has to catch up, and that takes .... time.

This also explains the phenomena known as "Deja Vu", which is the French for "Already Seen". It has been "already seen" in a glimpse into the Eternal Now, either during a moment of meditation or while sleeping. The soul doesn't sleep, only the mind and body do. So, while being instructed in the night seasons, as the Bible says, while our body sleeps but our spirit is awake ... " I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons. ."(Ps 16:7), we get a glimpse into the Eternal Now and some "time" later the physical has caught up to the spiritual and you could swear that the situation or scene you are in was "already seen" before; you claim to be having a "Deja Vu", because in fact you are.

Knowing about things in advance gives us a great advantage in that we can prepare for the events that will soon be shaping history and the world instead of suffering the changes not knowing what is really going on. We, who have faithfully studied God's Word, are not in the dark as to what the "future" holds for us. We know what is going to happen. This can also at times be very frustrating as we try to share what we know with others and are met with scorn and derision. It is like the pilot that sees the fire approaching the town and tries to warn the town's folk but is laughed at just because they don't "see" it themselves. We attempted to bring this out some in our Newsletter called The Patience of the Saints.

In the Eternal Now of the spirit world things are quite polarized. The "for's" on the one side and the "against's" on the other, there is no in-between. There are a great many souls that have not yet fully entered the Eternal Now even though they have crossed death. They "sleep" awaiting the return of Christ, and as Jesus did for three and a half days following His crucifixion, we will also get to visit with these and witness to them one more time before they choose which side of the Eternal Now they will spend Eternity on. The Bible speaks of those who "sleep"; " Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory ." (1Cor 15:51-54)

There are many things that remain a mystery to us now, but for those of us who have selected to accept Jesus as God's gift of Salvation, all of these mysteries will be clear once we have joined Him in the Eternal Now. " For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known ." (1Cor 13:12) So, beloved brethren, be not afraid of sudden fear when it cometh, for greater is He Who is in you than he who is in the world. Join Jesus today, and be a partaker on the right side of the Eternal Now.

Just prior to the sounding of the seventh trumpet signifying the return of Christ to rightfully rule the Earth, what did the angel declare ? "And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: ." (Rev 10:5-6) Welcome to the Eternal Now !

May God bless you with His Love, Peace and Truth.
 
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« Last Edit: 11 April 2007 by Admin » Logged
Sifu Stier
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Re: Now in a Christian context
« Reply #1 on: 11 April 2007 »

Hmmm!  I am surprised by this, Mike! sad  Would this article have been similarly segregated if it expressed a Sufi or Hindu or Buddhist view? Uh?  I seriously doubt it! tongue 

So you are essentially saying that a Christian perspective of 'Now' isn't compatible with other views on the same topic? shocked  How is ANY viewpoint on transforming one's personal perspective and experience of the inadequate and mundane 'Now' into the 'Eternal Now' not relevant to the original thread topic, regardless of the viewpoint's spiritual foundation? confused

It looks to me like you are splitting hairs with more than a little bit of anti-Christian discrimination simply because you personally resonate more comfortably with Buddhist and other non-Christian viewpoints. embarassed 

Doc
« Last Edit: 12 April 2007 by Doc Stier » Logged
Mike
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Re: Now in a Christian context
« Reply #2 on: 12 April 2007 »

Hi Doc  smiley

I have never yet had a day wearing my Admin hat where I split a thread for tidiness sake and didnt receive 'feedback' either directly or in PMs suggesting I had done the wrong thing, split it at the wrong place, or coming up with some complex hypotheses and motivations as to why I did it.

So a statement to all the forum:

i) every now and then I tidy up;
ii) the motivation for the above is to keep threads consistent (-ish) - no more no less. If you are snipped to a new thread its no insult - in fact quite the reverse - it seems the angle is worthy of its own thread;
iii) there is no right place to snip any thread (so please no more PMs saying I snipped at the wrong point), there is no right answer/wrong answer as to whether to create a new thread;
iv) last and not least - admining is a necessary evil - I generally give it a few secs and just snip away.

So phew thats my last word on the subject of tidying...  Happy nothing is ever deleted only moved.

The judges decision is final (altho someone once got so offended (!) after an exchange of emails out of compassion for clear suffering I de-snipped a post).

As per this snip Doc as its my last post on snipping  tongue I'll explain my thought process... my 3secs thought on this one was that post1 was about the deficiencies of an 'all-now' approach, post2 about the advantages of a 'now' post - hence two different threads.

As to the titling - well I couldnt call it "now" as there are 1001 threads with that title (and folks tend not to click on these things unless a clear label they like) - I was going to call it biblical perspective on now but then thought that given the new testament references christian might be better.

So no deep thoughts, no discrimination, just a quick snip and a quick label... if it had been a sufi post or a taoist post or a tolle post I would have labelled it with those adjectives.

Hence accusations of religious discrimination are well wide of the mark and rather distasteful - the post is in precisely the same section as all other Now posts and merely has a descriptive title  confused

Mike
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Sifu Stier
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Re: Now in a Christian context
« Reply #3 on: 13 April 2007 »


So no deep thoughts, no discrimination, just a quick snip and a quick label... if it had been a sufi post or a taoist post or a tolle post I would have labelled it with those adjectives.

Hence accusations of religious discrimination are well wide of the mark and rather distasteful - the post is in precisely the same section as all other Now posts and merely has a descriptive title. 


Hi Mike:

I certainly don't wish to see any ongoing debate or hard feelings on either side over this issue.  However, since I am usually quite direct in expressing my thoughts and feelings, and oftentimes admittedly impatient with what I perceive to be BS from anyone about anything, I don't mind telling you that your explanation would be much more convincing it there was a specific section for Judeo-Christian topics as there now is for Buddhism, Taoisim, Sufism, Vedanta, and even Shamanism! 

The relegation of Jewish and Christian topics to the generic 'Other' Section, IMO, essentially says to all that the Judeo-Christian Traditions lack sufficient effective means of spiritual transformation in comparison to the other Traditions presented at TTEM, and that there is an insufficient interest in Judeo-Christian Spirituality to warrant its own category.  Instead, these topics are simply relegated to the 'Other' section...summarily dismissed with a "whatever" solution.  I apologize for any distasteful offense my comments may arouse in you.  Please understand, though, that I find the exclusion of a specific Judeo-Christian Section, where viritually every other major religious and spiritual tradition is represented individually, to be distasteful as well, and see it as a discriminatory exclusion.  Of course, as the Founder and Administrator of the TTEM Forum, only you can fix the problem!

Doc
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Mike
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Re: Now in a Christian context
« Reply #4 on: 13 April 2007 »

Well as Tracey said earlier in one thread about christianity, religion can get quite controversial... so there aren't really any sections for religion or politics as such...

The focus of the forum is on Transformation Tools and spiritual development... the predominant tools that folks can "seminar" if you like around the world are things like meditation, yoga, qigong, reiki, shamanic tools... the philosophies they are embedded in are also here - yoga/vedanta, taoism/buddhism, shamanism.  If one looks at those sections and the content of posts there I dont think one could find any of them "religious" per se... spiritual development for sure...

Now I guess the anomalies to the "no religion and politics" thought are the Sufi section and the 9/11 thread... but the former section is hardly religious and the latter is a one-off.  As Michael Udel pointed out current christianity lacks almost any transformational tool content or instruction.

Now this is not to say that religion and politics cant be transformational or are bad things or anything... however they are topics which can cause divisive argument... The principal "religious threads" here have almost all been Christian and in terms of moderating topics have required the most work from me - I can think of three folks who launched quite strong attacks. As you are well aware my moderation efforts in these cases were all in your favour - ie to ensure that you or your faith were not attacked.  I even applied this rule when my personal opinion was not on your side... eg some issue about the church and its role in history (where sadly it is true to say that hardly functioned always as a force for good in European history  sad)

In a worldwide forum attitudes to religions vary and the difference in view is considerable.

Anyway to cut a long story short I hear what you say.  However the facts of the matter are that religion and politics are contentious subjects that divide rather than unite.  Transformational tools and the learning therof are a topic which unites people from around the world, from different cultures, from different religions, races, creeds.

Anyway there are a zillion and one fora on the internet where one can debate/argue all day and all night these topics... so TTEM construction is no loss to the world  confused  Furthermore as you say TTEM is my forum which I (and none of the rest of you) pay for out of my own pocket and also devote much time to trying to keep peaceful and well-moderated. 

As I say about my moderation I dont myself believe its all "logically, provably" correct - equally I dont believe the forum design is "logically, provably" correct... as is the way of the world no two folks will ever agree about everything.

Mike

ps just in terms of directness I see there is no "Christians and Jews" section on your forum either and that much/most discussion is around oriental modalities wink

pps talking of these matters, as you know there is a constant stream of wanna-be spammers signing up for ttem, most of whom I delete on sight.  There was one guy this week under the name of "jesusfreak.com" ... curiously his email name was "chud" - which is either a 1 in 456,976 chance coincidence or happens to be chud from Shen Men Tao (who is already a member under his own name)...  shocked Anyway I prefer to believe in coincidence rather than the evangelical christians are on the march converting the heathens and anti-christs of the world rolleyes
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Mike
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Re: Now in a Christian context
« Reply #5 on: 13 April 2007 »

ps I think the key thing here is I want to host something where we can all share what we can agree on...  smiley

...not wrestle over those subjects we cannot  sad

I am more than happy for you to post some link here for ttem members to a forum where they can discuss religious matters or christian matters in more depth...

Might be a helpful idea?

Mike
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Sifu Stier
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Re: Now in a Christian context
« Reply #6 on: 13 April 2007 »

Mike:

You are a funny guy, my friend! grin  With all due respect for your biased opinion, it is the view of most people worldwide that Buddhism is a religion; that Taoism is a religion; that Sufism is a form of Islamic religion; that Shamanism is a religion; that Vedanta is a form of Hindu religion.  In fact, all of your 'isms' in the Philosophies Section are not merely spiritual philosophies, but are also modes and forms of religious practice as well.  If you disagree with this statement, you are in the minority of those who think so. confused

You are clearly still discriminating in behalf of your own personal bias...i.e. that the Judeo-Christian Traditions lack tools and methods of spiritual transformation, which simply isn't true.  The fact that anyone else may agree with you doesn't make such opinions factual.  Very few people raised within or exposed to Western Christianity and Judaism have ever researched or investigated the many mystical writings and spiritual practices of the Desert Fathers, the Hesychasts, the Essenes, the Kabballists, the Nazarites, or other groups. sad  And most of these people don't even want to acknowledge the rich spiritual traditions that exist within the Jewish and Christian Faiths, because it is easier to reject their religious upbringing by doing so. embarassed

What most folks know of Christianity or Judaism often amounts to less than fond memories of attending boring Church or Synagogue Services, and perhaps Sunday School, Bible Study Classes, or Torah Study Classes, without ever hearing about mystical philosophy, contemplative prayer and meditation, kabballah, and so forth.  But that doesn't mean that such avenues of spiritual growth and study don't exist, only that they thrive predominantly in monastic enclosures or rabbinical enclaves more so than in the local community churches and synagogues. Sad but true. sad  And besides, I never proposed to discuss liturgical rites and rubrics, or other specifically religious services and ceremonies anyhow. shocked 

And lastly, the Shen Men Tao Forum is intended to be primarily a venue for the discussion of Chinese Internal Martial Arts and Chinese Culture Topics, especially those which relate to the Shen Men Tao System.  It is not a venue intended specifically for topics relating to spiritual cultivation, self-realization, meditation, or the like, as is this forum.  As a result, section headings and topic categories of that kind are not featured.  Gimme a break, man! rolleyes

Anyway....your discrimination is showing again! tongue  wink

Doc 
« Last Edit: 13 April 2007 by Doc Stier » Logged
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Re: Now in a Christian context
« Reply #7 on: 13 April 2007 »

I am tired of personal attacks which I am moderating on behalf of the "no disrespect" rule.  I have let more than enough go in this thread already without moderation out of respect for both your friendship and contribution to the forum over the years 

However I am now moderating - I refuse to spend my time discussing slurs and personal insults.  This thread is closed.

Also as I said above I am not interested in a debate about what is logically the best set of forum sections to have rolleyes (and frankly most folks say there are far too many rather than too few) any more than I am interested in debating how I decorate my house.  As for the topics you mention there was a thread a while back about eg the Gnostics which Rob started (but it paled away due to your strong religious views about the Gnostics).  No topic is ever moderated out.

All folks here are my honoured and treasured "house-guests" - and as I say on the home page of the forum they are asked to abide by the rules.  The main one is "no disrespect" and not unsurprisingly that includes not personally attacking your host.

Mike

ps www.ttem.org starts with the following paragraph:

"TTEM covers a variety of Transformational Tools and Energy Modalities such as Qigong, Zhan Zhuang, Reiki, Healing, Yoga, Meditation, Energy Psychotherapy, Mind and Psi, Diet and Nutrition, amongst others as well as some Oriental/Experiential Philosophies - Buddhism, Taoism, Sufism, Vedanta, Shamnism.   It is not aligned to any one modality, tool or philosophy but celebrates diversity and respect for all paths and all peoples. "

so as far as I can see the forum format is exactly as the forum advertises itself...
« Last Edit: 13 April 2007 by Admin » Logged

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