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"The Conscious Universe" Dean Radin
« on: 24 January 2006 »

This is one of the worst titles ever as that is not what the book is about... one possible explanation of psi phenomena is that the old division between subjective and objective is not entirely valid (altho' quite useful for building rockets, computers, baked beans, suspension bridges et al).

More to the point is the subtitle (I presume Radins choice for the title) "The Scientific Truth of Psychic Phenomena".

Now this sort of thing tends to be seen as irrelevant by various people who are either believers from the outset or shall we say experiencers...  Typically also people not trained in the scientific paradigm... However for those from a scientific background there is a high degree of confidence that if not complete the laws of physics are well proven.  As Radin points out at some point some of these psi things are proven to a higher confidence interval than say the mass of a quark but it is the lack of a clear mechanism surrounding psi that makes it so hard for the scientific community to embrace (after all one would *appear* to have to throw out a lot of 'prove' stuff or rewrite some fundamental premises).  Having said that there's a nice quote about 'the whole of science consists of previously inexplicable data'  Cool

For those that want a breezy read and journalistic overview of the material showing that scientific experiments are pro not anti psi phenomena then The Field is a better bet.  For those who feel that that book hand waves and grandstands then Radins is of a more peer-group reviewable standard.

I include the chapter listing here as its an interesting slicing and dicing of what is possible to test scientifically (eg clearly NDEs are a bit tough to arrange experiments around and one is just left with a mass of anecdotal and subjective data):

1. What is Psi?
2. Experience
3. Replication
4. Meta-analysis

5. Telepathy
6. Perception at a Distance
7. Perception through Time
8. Mind-matter interaction
9. Mental interactions with living organisms
10. Field consciousness
11. Psi in the Casino
12. Applications

13. A field guide to skepticism
14. Seeing Psi
15. Metaphysics

16. Theory
17. Implications

It good chunky impressive stuff..

Mike
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"The Conscious Universe" Dean Radin
« Reply #1 on: 26 January 2006 »

Interesting topic.

Mike:
Quote
one possible explanation of psi phenomena is that the old division between subjective and objective is not entirely valid


Yes, subject and object distinction. I think it is scientifically valid to say that we all are connected to each other through the universe we all are part of. I remember ancient philosopher Parmenides thought somewhat similar way. He thought that the universe is ball shaped, which was perfect shape in his opinion, and it is solid -- the space between objects is only an illusion. Thus also movement is illusion.

Quote
Parmenides goes on to consider in the light of this principle the consequences of saying that anything is. In the first place, it cannot have come into being. If it had, it must have arisen from nothing or from something. It cannot have arisen from nothing; for there is no nothing. It cannot have arisen from something; for here is nothing else than what is. Nor can anything else besides itself come into being; for there can be no empty space in which it could do so. Is it or is it not? If it is, then it is now, all at once. In this way Parmenides refutes all accounts of the origin of the world. Ex nihilo nihil fit.
(Source: http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/p/parmenid.htm)


But now I'm drifting seriously out of topic...

Mike:
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altho' quite useful


Exactly, it is an useful instrument.

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at some point some of these psi things are proven to a higher confidence interval than say the mass of a quark but it is the lack of a clear mechanism surrounding psi that makes it so hard for the scientific community to embrace


This is not the fault of the phenomenon which is researched, or is it? Sceptics say that this (lack of scientific evidence) is because the phenomenon does not exist, but I think in most cases it is just another way to say "I know the truth better than you", or "My view of world is more truthful or real than yours". It's an Ego thing and in most cases these scientific people are as dogmatic as religious fanatics...they don't care about researching the topic, interviewing people about their experiences, since they already  know the truth. Inside scientific community it is easy to say "these things do not exist" because it is maistream idea! You don't have to provide any proofs to back up your opinion, and still everybody will accept you as a member of this community. If you say something else, you have to struggle really hard...and not many have energy and muscle to do that.

So, if someone says that scientific community treats all research topics with equal manner and interest, demanding equal amount of evidence...think again! The social factors in scientific community are the factors that make it close to religion. The textbook (ideal) science doesn't exist.
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Mike
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"The Conscious Universe" Dean Radin
« Reply #2 on: 26 January 2006 »

Hello Guest...!

tx for posting your thoughts and do join in... actually only an oversight that guests can post in the new section (keep spam down by requiring registration idea) - but clearly a serendipitous one lol

Quote from: MB
one possible explanation of psi phenomena is that the old division between subjective and objective is not entirely valid


Quote from: guest
Yes, subject and object distinction.


Well not *just* that but the broader angle too... ie science (well 'hard' science) has largely confined itself to objective modes of perception (and in those you can have subject/object).  The point I was alluding to was - for the sake of oversimplification - that were the universe to be made of 'consciousness', 'matter', 'energy' then the traditional realm of science (in which it has of course been spectacularly successful) is not (as many scientists would tend to say) 'the universe'... but rather 'a (large) subset of it'.

Of course its for reasons like this that there is resistance (people dont like thinking their pyramids' foundations are 'not level' lol).

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I think it is scientifically valid to say that we all are connected to each other through the universe we all are part of.


Indeed (although the word connection can have *many* meanings at many levels)...

Its also artistically valid (well was in the 60s) as well as scientifically true to say "we are stardust" (Joni Mitchell).... In fact we all came from supernovae (without which no heavy elements would exist).

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Parmenides goes on...


Thank you for this reminder - indeed my knowledge of said Greek gentleman is rusty these days... Smiley

I had lunch with a chum the other day who is working thru' a part-time degree in philosophy and the trouble is 'philosophy goes on.... [and on... [etc]]' lol... Reasonable men can differ as long as they breathe... To my more orientalist nature it is all a little bit 'untransformational' even if admittedly interesting.

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But now I'm drifting seriously out of topic...


Pray continue - when people drift they generally talk about something interesting rather than whats the exam question today lol.

Quote
This is not the fault of the phenomenon which is researched, or is it? Sceptics say that this (lack of scientific evidence) is because the phenomenon does not exist, but I think in most cases it is just another way to say "I know the truth better than you", or "My view of world is more truthful or real than yours". It's an Ego thing and in most cases these scientific people are as dogmatic as religious fanatics...they don't care about researching the topic, interviewing people about their experiences, since they already  know the truth. Inside scientific community it is easy to say "these things do not exist" because it is mainstream idea! You don't have to provide any proofs to back up your opinion, and still everybody will accept you as a member of this community. If you say something else, you have to struggle really hard...and not many have energy and muscle to do that.


Just so my friend!

However and *buy the book!!* (no i dont have shares in amazon Sad ) - thats THE amazing thing (well was for me).... The data - to scientific standards does exist... Radin writes well on this whole issue of the community, reactionaries, ego-investment and unscientific sceptics.

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So, if someone says that scientific community treats all research topics with equal manner and interest, demanding equal amount of evidence...think again! The social factors in scientific community are the factors that make it close to religion. The textbook (ideal) science doesn't exist.


Just so and you win lifetime membership of TTEM as a prize for putting your finger on the button  :mrgreen:

Thanks again for  Cool comments.

Mike
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Thank you Mike
« Reply #3 on: 26 January 2006 »

Grohmn... it was me, I just forgot to log in :|

Now I'll have to buy that book too, or to persuade University library buying it.
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Re: Thank you Mike
« Reply #4 on: 26 January 2006 »

Quote from: Ovidius
it was me, I just forgot to log in


LOL - well your membership is still free as a prize (the rest of you keep sending the cheques wink ) but I didnt need to be so polite  :lol:

Actually on the basis of greek philosopher I guessed it was you...tried to send PM asking which the browser erased (as it does) couldn't be bothered to retype and had to go... lol

Well I better go back and secure this forum (I secured it and then re-un-secured it in case it sent a prolix (and thus welcome lol) guest packing!)
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Re: Thank you Mike
« Reply #5 on: 27 January 2006 »

In every way you are doing a great job as an administrator and a fellow forumer, Mike Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: 28 January 2006 »

Oh, yeah, buddy!  You're doing a pretty good job, Mike.  Not bad for a white boy!  Really!  No kidding! LOL  wink  :lol:

Doc
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Mike
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The Introduction to Radins Book
« Reply #7 on: 23 February 2006 »

I just came across a webpage containing the intro... http://www.irva.org/papers/RadinCU.html

it begins...

"Chapter 1: Introduction

The psyche's attachment to the brain, i.e., its space-time limitation, is no longer as self-evident and incontrovertible as we have hitherto been led to believe. It is not only permissible to doubt the absolute validity of space-time perception; it is, in view of the available facts, even imperative to do so.   -  Carl Jung, Psychology and the Occult.

In science, the acceptance of new ideas follows a predictable, four-stage sequence. In Stage 1, skeptics confidently proclaim that the idea is impossible because it violates the Laws of Science. This stage can last from years to centuries, depending on how much the idea challenges conventional wisdom. In Stage 2, skeptics reluctantly concede that the idea is possible, but it is not very interesting and the claimed effects are extremely weak. Stage 3 begins when the mainstream realizes that the idea is not only important, but its effects are much stronger and more pervasive than previously imagined. Stage 4 is achieved when the same critics who used to disavow any interest in the idea begin to proclaim that they thought of it first. Eventually, no one remembers that the idea was once considered a dangerous heresy.

The idea discussed in this book is in the midst of the most important and the most difficult of the four transitions -  from Stage 1 into Stage 2. While the idea itself is ancient, it has taken more than a century to conclusively demonstrate it in accordance with rigorous, scientific standards. This demonstration has accelerated Stage 2 acceptance, and Stage 3 can already be glimpsed on the horizon.

The idea

The idea is that those compelling, perplexing and sometimes profound human experiences known as "psychic phenomena" are real. This will come as no surprise to most of the world's population, because the majority already believes in psychic phenomena. But over the past few years, something new has propelled us beyond old debates over personal beliefs. The reality of psychic phenomena is now no longer based solely upon faith, or wishful thinking, or absorbing anecdotes. It is not even based upon the results of a few scientific experiments. Instead, we know that these phenomena exist because of new ways of evaluating massive amounts of scientific evidence collected over a century by scores of researchers.

Psychic, or "psi" phenomena fall into two general categories. The first is perception of objects or events beyond the range of the ordinary senses.  The second is mentally causing action at a distance. In both categories, it seems that intention, the mind's will, can do things that -  according to prevailing scientific theories -  it isn't supposed to be able to do. We wish to know what is happening to loved ones, and somehow, sometimes, that information is available even over large distances. We wish to speed the recovery of a loved one's illness, and somehow they get better quicker, even at a distance. Mind willing, many interesting things appear to be possible.

Understanding such experiences requires an expanded view of human consciousness. Is the mind merely a mechanistic, information-processing bundle of neurons? Is it a "computer made of meat" as some cognitive scientists and neuroscientists believe? Or is it something more? The evidence suggests that while many aspects of mental functioning are undoubtedly related to brain structure and electrochemical activity, there is also something else happening, something very interesting.

This is for real?

When discussing the reality of psi phenomena, especially from the scientific perspective, one question always hovers in the background: You mean this is for real? In the midst of all the nonsense and excessive silliness proclaimed in the name of psychic phenomena, the misinformed use of the term parapsychology by self-proclaimed "paranormal investigators," the perennial laughing stock of magicians and conjurers " this is for real?"  The short answer is, Yes.

A more elaborate answer is, psi has been shown to exist in thousands of experiments. There are disagreements over to how to interpret the evidence, but the fact is that virtually all scientists who have studied the evidence, including the hard-nosed skeptics, now agree that there is something interesting going on that merits serious scientific attention. Later we'll discuss the reasons why very few scientists and science journalists are aware of this dramatic shift in informed opinion.

...[continues on the webpage]"
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