TTEM - Transformational Tools for Body Energy and Mind

Mind => Other-Esoteric, Shamanisms & Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Dedroidify on 06 February 2007

Title: Finding Bona Fide Shamanic Training
Post by: Dedroidify on 06 February 2007
I found someone in my own town who does reiki and shamanic healing, I'll try the reiki first and if I feel comfortable with the lady I might go for a shamanic healing. Especially after reading this thread.

Title: Re: Soul Retrieval
Post by: Myeegan on 21 February 2007
Hi all, please be cautious about people claiming to be shaman (well in the context of teaching native american teachings anyway) as there are a considerable amount of people out there who have questionable credentials.
Here is a link to a website where many questionable persons are listed. I would not trust completely that they are fake's nor that they are legit, but if they are on this site there is probable reason to think about one's interactions with them.
My use of words is not so good today, as the above seems quite klunky, I hope you get the idea though, please forgive the poor writing skills.

Title: Re: Soul Retrieval
Post by: Tracey on 21 February 2007
Hi Myeegan,

So good to see you again :happy:

I went to the web site and found the Wellspring Center in Connecticut.  I live in Connecticut and have heard some people say they are taking classes there.  I know of one store locally that advertises for them. Thank you for the info as I will know to steer clear if something feels fishy.

Have you heard of the Rocky Mountain Mystery School?  I know of 2 people taking classes there and they seem very happy with it but I don't know much about them.  They have a nice web site and they are very expensive.


Title: Re: Soul Retrieval
Post by: Myeegan on 21 February 2007
Hi Tracey, good to be here. Been so very busy at work it is terrible.
I have never heard of the rocky mountain mystery school, send me their url I would love to check it out. I like the name.
How have you been, I have missed everyone here and on the reiki site.

Title: Re: Soul Retrieval
Post by: Dedroidify on 21 February 2007
And I would like to warn you for not trusting these so called fraud-exposers too much either,

For instance, Ian Lungold is mentioned simply cause he's an ex-scientologist, this is ridiculous - hey I used to be an atheist DON'T TRUST ME! :p
I think Ian Lungold did a great job lecturing on Calleman's Mayan Calender theories, may he RIP.
Christ if anything someone's past is NOT the way to judge them, how many spiritually profound people have come from the lowest of depths, if I ever get around to teaching and they delve out my past I'd get discredited too, it's that past that propelled so many of us to a greater future!

Hopi Ear Candles are listed too and my energy healer uses this and I know she's not a fraud, though I haven't tried the treatment and know squatt about it, though I'm sorry to say I'm not very interested and will not investigate further or try it. There's just something too hilarious about saying you've tried an ear candles method :p Too many other fun practices out there so my apologies on my weird stance on this but I just wanted to mention it.

It seems a lot of posts on that site are related to mere ignorance of the cases involved. I agree there are a lot of frauds out there which is a shame cause there isn't any lower to go than using spirituality as fraud, well, there's always politics I guess :p BUT - be careful and don't believe anything you read that goes for the "fraud-exposers" aswell.

Title: Re: Soul Retrieval
Post by: Tracey on 21 February 2007
Good point, D.  Many people can have a chip on their shoulders from a bad experiecne or from an experience they didn't meet theri expectations.

I learned ear candling in massage school and find it a great way to clean out my son's ears.  He has very narrow ear canals and gets alot of wax build up.  I would rather ear candle than to pay a doctor to do a warm water lavage.  It is not for everyone, but what is.

I like the fact that you won't judge people based on their past cuz I am sure many of us would not hold up and that goes for me too.

Myeegan,  On a separate note, could you post a thread, if you have the time and knowledge, about being tested in the (I think they are called) underworlds in terms of Shamanism?

Warm hugs to welcome you,

Title: Re: Soul Retrieval
Post by: Myeegan on 22 February 2007
Perhaps I did not make my perspective clear, so I will attempt to clarify for some.

The site that I posted is run by native american people, the participants are native american people. I do not take this site as absolute, nor do I recommend anyone else to. My view is quite simple, if someone is listed here, be wary. Doesn't mean that they are complete frauds (in my view) it means be wary. Some native people feel, believe, or know that the person listed is trying to make money by selling themselves off as native, or by selling questionable "native" teachings / ceremonies or such that may not be native at all and could be unhealthy and or dangerous.

I looked up Ian Lungold and found that he is certainly listed for being suspected of being fraudulant because the people who put him there felt that he was trying to pass himself off as native, and trying to make money because of that. There was a note on the bottom of the list saying that he was connected with scientology, conspiracy stuff, chem trails etc...  Were he to have some indication that the monies from the sale of his calendars etc.. benifit the mayan people somehow his name probably would not be there.

Whether his being a fraud is true or not, I don't know, but having to live where the accepted history of my people is written by non natives with not so well hidden biases I can certainly understand the necessity of this site. Many (mostly non native) people have been taken in by crooks saying that their great grandmother was a cherokee princess shaman and selling some gobblegook as native teachings.
Several people have gotten hurt as well in the past couple of years doing "nuage" "native style" ceremonies.
This is my motivation for posting this. I would not like to hear about one of my friends at ttem who lost their money or health to some fakir waving a native american flag.

Hi Tracey warm hugs back to you. I have no idea on what you are asking of me, please try to explain a bit further for my simple mind. Underworlds?? Testing??
I'll help you any way I can.

Title: Re: Soul Retrieval
Post by: Dedroidify on 23 February 2007
I understood you fine I'm just making my own related points ;)

Not to beat a dead horse (is that even a correct expression lol) but I'd just like to add that
* scientology doesn't make me not trust somebody, near the entire cast of My name is earl are scientologists and they are spreading an excellent message, though it is funny (scientology and the show lol)
* if anything conspiracy researchers gain my respect, sure some are paranoid, but who's the authority on which conspiracies are paranoid? A lot of people today are asking questions where the (controlled? yup) media is not allowed or too cowardly to venture
* I don't know much about chemtrails but I think it's connected to HAARP and if it's true would need to be taken seriously. again, no judgement here
* selling mayan calenders is kinda silly, but again who's the authority on which ones are correct, Calleman's theories are just as valid as Jenkins, Cotterell or anyone
* though selling yourself as a native when you are not obviously blows
What it comes down to is Ian lectured in what he believed and spread the knowledge of the evolution of consciousness and the mayan calender so I respect him for that, about the rest one cannot be sure. Either way he's dead so it doesn't matter much, and if it helps I'd say that I thought Ian didn't have a very centered personality when lecturing either ;) So it sure is possible he read some book and tried to make some easy money, the lecturing at least was spreading good knowledge.

What I find weird too is that hopi ear candles are listed while tracey with her own native blood uses it, could anyone clarify further if this really is/was a hopi tradition? Or is it something new age? Tracey learned it in massage school.

Then, spending money is not the best way to progress on the spiritual path ;) some people need lessons in who they can trust, I know I'm bending off the ridiculous here lol but I'm just sharing some points I think are valid in this discussion.

Finally, thanks for posting the site though, I know I came off a little exaggerated but I just wanted to share some thoughts, please don't take it personally. It's always great to know who are seen as dubious by others and I'm glad I only found two debatable points. :)

Title: Re: Finding Bona Fide Shamanic Training
Post by: Admin on 23 February 2007

Hey great to see you alive and well man  :grin:

Thanks for adding that resource - as you say these days all sorts of folks are trying to pass themselves off as all sorts of things in all sorts of traditions.

Like all resources - including TTEM - no website contains 100% truth on anything so I see little point in debating whether one small part of it happens to be accurate or not... even were it to be completely inaccurate about this one gentleman (whom I assume neither of you guys have ever met) it would still not mean that it isnt very accurate and helpful about others and might save someone from wasting money and more one day.

It is interesting to note given the recent thread on non bona-fide gurus in other traditions that this whole subject can get very emotive... all of us have teachers who we like and respect and feel some duty to defend... of course in practice all folks are human and very few lack any flaw.

Based on my experience with Chinese and Buddhist cultures its really hard to find the "real deal"... there are plenty out there selling corrupted and debased stuff... and also its no real proof of knowledge to find a "real native" - taking the Chinese there are 1billion of them.  Also in this context I have learned a lot form Burgs (an Englishman) about qigong - he knows far more than at least 99.99% of Chinese do about qigong.

In a shamanic context both Wolfie and Barry have learned a lot from Tom Brown Jnr (I assume a "white man"?!?).

Anyway long story short - its hard work finding the really good teachers... lots of frauds out there.... lots of teachers neither completely right in all respects nor completely wrong in all respects.

Anyway good teacher, bad teacher, native american or european, fraud or genuine all folks hearts are red, all folks wish to be happy.

May all beings be well, peaceful and happy!


Title: Re: Finding Bona Fide Shamanic Training
Post by: Myeegan on 23 February 2007
Somebody wise once (maybe more than once) said that knowledge and experience could be gained from everything in life.
It is good to know what others are thinking about people though, in the not so far past people would gather together to share, meeting people individually and in groups provides some great perspectives on people. Now using the internet, we get to meet and share with people all over the world which is wonderfull, but does not provide the exposure to others, we have to rely on what is written on the websites unless we know someone who has participated, then we have one additional perspective.† Sometimes it is good to have more.
I was in Mexico last year, We toured the ruins of Chichen itza and Coba, spent time in the villages near the ruins, visited with the people there. Had a wonderfull time.
I learned about the mayan calender, I learned about the mayan roads and some of the places they go. I learned about how to cultivate crops in the thin soil of the Yucatan peninsula, I learned how the mayan people kept their language for the past many years since the spanish invaded, but now they are loosing it because of tourism and tv etc.. their world is in a point of major change, the people are changing, their world views are changing, their community views are changing. It is a bittersweet time for them. At the ruins one could purchase a custom mayan calender for whatever particular date you would like from one of several sources. One source the money does not stay in the community, part of it goes to the person who convinced you to buy there, the rest goes out of the area. Annother source is run by the conservation authority that runs the ruins, most of the money stays in the area. Both of these calenders look exactly the same but one puts food in someone's mouth today, the other does not, both of the groups of people where you purchase them are sincere.
One must be aware that things like this happen so that one can inquire with the right questions to decide where their money would be better spent. If one cares to do that. One must know the appropriate questions and responses to tell them the truth.
If I know where I am, and how I got here I feel that I have a pretty good chance of making my next step on solid ground. I do not want to find myself three steps past the end of the pier wondering how I got here (woke up in enough strange places when I drank)

Title: Re: Finding Bona Fide Shamanic Training
Post by: Sifu Stier on 11 April 2007
Native American Shaman?
Posted by: Ghost Dancer

Do you think you are "Indian by heart" or were "an Indian in a past life"? Do you admire native ways and want to incorporate them into your life and do "your own" version of a sweat lodge or a "vision quest"? Have you seen ads, books, and websites that offer to "train you to become a "Native American Shaman" in an easy number of steps, a few days on the weekend, or for a fee? Have you really thought this all the way through? Have you thought about how native people feel about what you might want to do? Please think about these important points before you take that fateful step and expend time, money, and emotional investment:

1. Native people do not believe it is ethical to charge money for any ceremony or teaching.

2. Any who charge you even a penny are not authentic.

3. Native traditionalists believe the only acceptable way to transmit traditional teachings is orally and face-to-face.

4. Learning medicine ways takes decades and must be done with great caution and patience out of respect for the sacred.

5. Any offer to teach you all you need to know in a weekend seminar or two is wishful thinking at best, fraud at worst.

6. These fraudulent operators are not the slightest bit reputable.

7. Women should be extremely wary of any "teacher" who claims physical intimacy is part of an alleged "ceremony".

Most of these fraudulent operators have been caught making complete fantasies of what many non-natives wish natives were like. Another way to say it is that they are outright liars and hoaxers. You probably are asking yourself, "Are any of these people for real and a good way for me to learn?" Please understand the following points about native spiritual ways:

Native belief systems are communal, not focused on the individualís faith like Christianity. Native beliefs are tribal-specific. There is no "generic Indian" form of spirituality. There are as many differences from tribe-to-tribe as there are between Hinduism and the Church of England. No one would think of teaching those two as the same and calling them ""Indo-European," yet many of these fraudulent operators teach a thrown together mishmash of bits and pieces of different beliefs.

Traditional elders are very cautious about changing rituals and mixing different customs, it does happen, of course, but only after lengthy discussions that can take decades. These fraudulent operators are very casual and haphazard in what they do, in a manner that shows they have no understanding of or respect for the sacred. Traditional elders do not believe that any ceremony can be done by anyone who feels like it. Itís that same caution and respect for the sacred. Yet these fraudulent operators will let anyone do their inaccurate version of a ceremony if they have the money.

Vision quests, for example, are intended for young boys age 12 to 14, but boys donít have much money, so these fraudulent operators sell "quests" for hundreds or thousands to mostly middle-aged men and women. There are of course that legitimate representatives of Tribal Ceremony who may help adults with what we call "going on the hill". Only they won't charge you for it.

There is also the matter of telling people they can be shamans and charging them for it. If you were interested in Judaism, would you pay money to someone who said he could make you a rabbi in just one weekend seminar?

Think about the lack of respect these operators show to native people and beliefs, not mention their own followers, by defrauding people. Think also about how it makes it harder for natives and whites to get along when whites have been given an untrue picture of native cultures. We have to learn to get along and we canít do that as long as non-natives give support to operators who push a fraudulent version of what we are like.

We (native people and our supporters) realize that most of you do not know any better, at least not yet, but we hope you learn about these matters from more reputable sources and in a more respectful manner. If it says New Age or Shamanism on the cover, itís not a good source for learning about natives. Find out which authors can be trusted before you pay money to operators who harm us all.

True Ceremonial people are out there. They are likely in your midst, but they seldom wear a banner or make an announcement. They truly believe the Creator will put the right people together at the right time.

Title: Re: Finding Bona Fide Shamanic Training
Post by: Myeegan on 12 April 2007

Title: Re: Finding Bona Fide Shamanic Training
Post by: Alberto on 12 April 2007
I found this thread interesting and informative. I have deep respect for the Native American traditions

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